Talk:Eugenics Wars/archive
=Reference reassessment= I archived the old talk page here: talk:Eugenics Wars/archive. Anyway, I chose this page over talk:World War III since this war was referenced in detail first. In effort to resolve this once and for all, I decided to post the actual lines for us to collectively assess what was when, rather then assessing one thing at a time like like was discussed in the now archived info. From what I've read, I am some inclined to believe that WWIII came as a result of the instablities caused from the Eugenics Wars, based on the very first line every describing either from TOS...it all started in the 1990s and was likely hot and cold for the next 50 or 60 years. Feel free to add further references in the sections below. --Alan del Beccio 05:56, 18 February 2006 (UTC) TOS: "Space Seed" * KIRK: An old Earth vessel – similar to the DY-500 class. * SPOCK: Much older – DY-100 class, to be exact. Captain, the last such vessel was built centuries ago, back in the 1990s. ---- * SPOCK: ...scanners make out a name – SS Botany Bay. * KIRK: Then you can check the registry. * SPOCK: No such vessel listed. Records of that period are fragmentary, however. The mid-1990s was the era of your last so-called world war. *MCCOY: The Eugenics Wars. * SPOCK: Of course, your attempt to improve the race through selective breeding. * MCCOY: Now wait a minute. Not our attempt, Mr. Spock...a group of ambitious scientists. I'm sure you know the type... ---- * KIRK: 72 alive, a group of people dating back into the 1990s. A discovery of some importance, Mr. Spock. * SPOCK: There are a great many unanswered questions about those years. A strange, violent period in your history. I find no record what so ever of an SS Botany Bay. ---- *SPOCK: And why no record of the trip? *KIRK: Botany Bay? That was the name of a penal colony on the shores of Australia, wasn't it? If they took that name for their vessel... *SPOCK: If you're suggesting this was a penal deportation vessel, you've arrived at a totally illogical conclusion. *KIRK: Oh? *SPOCK: Your Earth was on the verge of a dark ages. Whole populations were being bombed out of existence. A group of criminals could have been dealt with far more efficiently than wasting one of their most advanced spaceships. *KIRK: Yes. So much for my theory. ---- *MCCOY: Even as he is now, his heart valve action has twice the power of ours, lung efficiency 50% better. *KIRK: An improved breed of human. That's what the Eugenics War was all about. *MCCOY: I'd estimate he could lift us both with one arm. Be interesting to see if his brain matches his body. ---- *KIRK: What was the exact date of your lift off? We know it was sometime in the early 1990s. ---- *KIRK: This Khan is not what I expected of a 20th century man. *SPOCK: I note he's making considerable use of our technical library. *KIRK: Common courtesy, Mr. Spock. He'll spend the rest of his days in our time. It's only decent to help him catch up. Would you estimate him to be a product of selective breeding? *SPOCK: There is that possibility, Captain. His age would be correct. In 1993, a group of these young supermen did seize power simultaneously in over 40 nations. *KIRK: Well, they were hardly supermen. They were aggressive, arrogant. They began to battle among themselves. *SPOCK: Because the scientists overlooked one fact-- superior ability breeds superior ambition. *KIRK: Interesting, if true. They created a group of Alexanders, Napoleons. *SPOCK: I have collected some names and made some counts. By my estimate, there were some 80 or 90 of these young supermen unaccounted for when they were finally defeated. *KIRK: That fact isn't in the history texts. *SPOCK: Would you reveal to war-weary populations that some 80 Napoleons might still be alive? ---- *KIRK: Forgive my curiosity, Mr. Khan, but my officers are anxious to know more about your extraordinary journey. *SPOCK: And how you managed to keep it out of the history books. *KHAN: Adventure, Captain. Adventure. *SPOCK: There was little else left on Earth. There was the war to end tyranny. Many considered that a noble effort. *KHAN: Tyranny, sir? Or an attempt to unify humanity? *SPOCK: Unify, sir? Like a team of animals under one whip? *KHAN: I know something of those years, remember. It was a time of great dreams, great aspiration. *SPOCK: Under dozens of petty dictatorships. *KHAN: One man would have ruled eventually, as Rome under Caesar. Think of its accomplishments. *SPOCK: Then your sympathies were with... *KHAN: You are an excellent tactician, Captain. You let your second-in-command attack while you sit and watch for weakness. *KIRK: You have a tendency to express ideas in military terms, Mr. Khan. This is a social occasion. *KHAN: It has been said that "social occasions" are only warfare concealed. Many prefer it more honest, more open. *KIRK: You fled. Why? Were you afraid? *KHAN: I've never been afraid. *KIRK: But you left at the very time mankind needed courage. *KHAN: We offered the world order! *KIRK: We? *KHAN: Excellent. Excellent. But if you will excuse me, gentlemen and ladies, I grow fatigued again. ---- *KIRK: Name-- Khan, as we know him today. Name-- Khan Noonien Singh. *SPOCK: From 1992 through 1996, absolute ruler of more than a quarter of your world; from Asia through the Middle East. *MCCOY: The last of the tyrants to be overthrown. *SCOTT: I must confess, gentlemen. I've always held a sneaking admiration for this one. *KIRK: He was the best of the tyrants and the most dangerous. They were supermen in a sense. Stronger, braver, certainly more ambitious, more daring. *SPOCK: Gentlemen, this romanticism about a ruthless dictator is... *KIRK: Mr. Spock, we humans have a streak of barbarism in us. Appalling, but there, nevertheless. *SCOTT: There were no massacres under his rule. *SPOCK: And as little freedom. *MCCOY: No wars until he was attacked. TOS: "Bread and Circuses" *MERIK: There's been no war here for over 400 years. Could your land of that same era make that same boast? I think you can see why they don't want to have their stability contaminated by dangerous ideas of other ways and places. *SPOCK: Interesting, and given a conservative empire, quite understandable. *MCCOY: Are you out of your head? *SPOCK: I said I understood it. I find the checks and balances of this civilization quite illuminating. *MCCOY: Next he'll be telling us he prefers it over Earth history. *SPOCK: They do seem to have escaped the carnage of your first three world wars, Doctor. *MCCOY: They have slavery, gladiatorial games, despotism. *SPOCK: Situations quite familiar to the six million who died in your first world war, the 11 million who died in your second, the 37 million who died in your third. Shall I go on? TOS: "The Savage Curtain" *YARNEK: Colonel Green led a genocidal war early in the 21st century on Earth. ---- *KIRK: You were notorious, Colonel Green, for striking at your enemies in the midst of negotiating with them. TAS: "The Infinite Vulcan" * KIRK: Lieutenant Uhura, how are you coming with that information on Keniclius? * UHURA: Nothing current, Captain. I may have found something in the history banks, I'll have it in a moment. ---- * COMPUTER VOICE: Working. From Earth history file. Stavos Keniclius, Earth scientist. Period: Eugenics Wars. Planned to clone perfect specimen prototype into master race. Concept considered anti-humanistic, banned from community. Disappeared. No evidence of death. No further data. * MCCOY: There used to be a story about a modern Diogenes wandering the galaxy looking for someone special. * KIRK: Someone special. A perfect specimen, perhaps. Yes, I've heard it too. * MCCOY: It couldn't be Keniclius, he would be over 250 years old! * KIRK: Not if he cloned a new copy every so often to carry on the search. Remember, he said he was Keniclius 5. ---- * UHURA: Mr. Spock, tell the Captain I've located more information about Keniclius. I had the library computers check out all known writings by Keniclius. They are obscure but there is a recurring in his later essays about using his master race as a peace keeping force throughout the galaxy. That was why Keniclius wanted a perfect specimen. ---- * KIRK: All this has been a waste Keniclius. There's been peace in the Federation for over 100 years. * KENICLIUS 5: That is a lie! What about the Eugenics Wars? The Galactic Wars? What of the depredations of the Romulans, the Klingons and the Kzinti? An army of Spock duplicates are necessary to subdue them. ''Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan *KHAN: Captain, captain, captain. Save your strength, Captain, these people have sworn to live and die at my command two hundred years before you were born. Do you mean he never told you the tale? To amuse you, Captain? No? Never told you how the Enterprise picked up the Botany Bay, lost in space from the year 1996, myself and the ship's company in cryogenic freeze? ---- *KHAN: It was only the fact of my genetically engineered intellect that allowed us to survive! On Earth, two hundred years ago, I was a prince, with power over millions... TNG: "Encounter at Farpoint" * Q (as 21st century soldier): "Rapid progress" to where humans learned to control their military with drugs. ---- *DATA: Historically intriguing, Captain. Very, very accurate. * PICARD: Mid-21st century, the post-atomic horror. ---- * DATA: Objection, your honor. In the year 2036, the new United Nations declared that no Earth citizen could be made to answer for the crimes of their race or forbearers. * Q: Objection denied! This is a court of the year 2079, by which time more "rapid progress" had caused all United Earth nonsense to be abolished. ---- * PICARD: We humans know our past, even when we're ashamed of it. I recognize this court system as the one that agreed with that line from Shakespeare: "Kill all the lawyers". * Q: Which was done. * PICARD: Leading to the rule: "Guilty until proven innocent". * Q: Of course. Bringing the innocent to trial would be unfair. TNG: "Up the Long Ladder" * COMPUTER VOICE: Distress beacon used by the European Hegemony. * RIKER: The European Hegemony? * PICARD: A loose alliance that formed in the early 22nd century. It was the first stirrings toward a world government. You should read more history, Number One. Computer, what is the exact dates when this beacon was in general use? *COMPUTER VOICE: Old Earth calendar, 2123 until 2190. ---- *DATA: Captain, I have been considering the problem with the missing ship. Although there is no record of a launch to the Ficus sector, which would not be unusual considering the chaos of the early 22nd century, someone had to load that ship. ---- *PICARD: Theorize Data, give us a background. *DATA: In the early 22nd century Earth was recovering from World War III. A major philosopher of the period was Liam Dieghan, founder of the Neo-Transcendentalists, who advocated a return to a simpler life in which one lived in harmony with nature, and learned under her gentle tutelage. Star Trek: First Contact * SLOANE: What is that? * COCHRANE: That is the constellation Leo. * SLOANE: No, that... It's an ECON! * COCHRANE: After all these years?! ---- * DATA: According to our astrometric readings, we are in the mid-21st century. From the radioactive isotopes in the atmosphere I would estimate that we have arrived approximately 10 years after the Third World War. * RIKER: Makes sense: most of the major cities have been destroyed, very few governments left, 600 million dead. No resistance. DS9: "Doctor Bashir, I Presume" *BENNETT: I don't think so. Two hundred years ago, we tried to "improve" the species through DNA resequencing and what did we get for our trouble? The Eugenics Wars. For every Julian Bashir that can be created, there's a Khan Singh waiting in the wings -- a "superhuman" whose ambition and thirst for power have been enhanced along with his intellect. The law against genetic engineering provides a firewall against such men and it's my job to keep that firewall intact. DS9: "Statistical Probabilities" * BASHIR: They don't "put people away" for being genetically engineered. * JACK: No, they just won't let us do anything that's worth doing, they're afraid we're going to take over. * BASHIR: It happened before. People like us did try to take over. * JACK: I knew it! I knew you were going to trot out the Eugenics Wars. * BASHIR: I'm not trotting anything out. All I'm saying is that there's a reason we're barred from certain professions. That doesn't mean we can't be productive members of society. VOY: "In the Flesh" * EMH: Throughout Human history weapons of mass destruction were often designed in the hopes that they'd never be used. * SEVEN: And yet, in Earth's Third World War, nuclear weapons accounted for 600 million casualties. Were they looking on the bright side? *EMH: An unfortunate exception. ENT: "Hatchery" *ARCHER: My great-grandfather was in North Africa during the Eugenics Wars. His battalion was evacuating civilians from a war zone when they came under attack. There was a school full of children directly between them and the enemy. If his men had returned fire, they might have hit it. So he called the commander on the other side, got him to agree to hold his fire long enough to evacuate the school. ENT: "Home" * ARCHER: Seen any good movies while I was gone? * HERNANDEZ: Another World War III epic. Swept all the awards. ENT: "Borderland" INCOMPLETE ENT: "Cold Station 12" INCOMPLETE ENT: "The Augments" INCOMPLETE ENT: "Demons" * SAMUELS: Having endured a catastrophic World War, Earth's governments came to this city for the purpose of creating a just and lasting peace among nations." ---- * PAXTON, (referring to Colonel Green video): The third world war just ended and the cease-fire was barely two years old. * GREAVES: Colonel Green. * PAXTON: Colonel Green. One of the many men history has misunderstood. * GREEN'S SPEECH: In the shadow of this incalculable devastation, we find ourselves facing a colossal challenge. There's an entire world to rebuild. Not only our cities and homes, but mankind itself. Now is not the time for timidity and second-guessing. We cannot afford to doubt ourselves. Unless we act decisively, we will pass on the scars of mutation and decay to future generations. For the sake of our children, and our children's children, we must reject the impure and cast it out! * PAXTON: Before my father died and left me this facility, I was studying to be an historian. Until I had a very verbal confrontation with a certain professor who claimed that Green was nothing more than a genocidal madman. * GREAVES: Sounds like we had the same professor. * PAXTON: Green euthanized hundreds of thousands who were inflicted with radiation damage. Their millions of descendants would have endured horrible disease, yet history, history never says anything about ''that suffering, that Green prevented. * GREAVES: Guess it all depends on who writes the history. * PAXTON: Makes me wonder if I'll be remembered with any more accuracy. * GREAVES: I don't think you're going to be misunderstood. * PAXTON: Really? Sometimes I'm not so certain I understand myself. * GREAVES: We did what we had to do, not what we wanted to do. * PAXTON: I'm sure Green told himself the same thing. * GREAVES: He was right. And so are we. * PAXTON: Daniel, you are a wise man. ENT: "Terra Prime" * GREAVES (regarding Vulcans): They're not Human. * TRIP: Well, can't deny that. * GREAVES: And they sat by, while millions of our people died. World War Three. * TRIP: Nah, we didn't make contact with the Vulcans 'til ten years after the war. * GREAVES: But they were up there. With their superior technology, they could have stopped it, but they didn't. I think it suited their plans. A devastated Earth was much easier to control. * TRIP: Is that the kind of paranoid crap Paxton's been feeding ya? ---- * T'POL: You're not only a terrorist, you're a hypocrite. * PAXTON: "This is not a time for timidity and second guessing. We cannot afford to doubt ourselves." * T'POL: Colonel Green also said, "To be Human is to be pure." Under his rule, you would have been euthanized for having a genetic disorder. * PAXTON: I'm not the first significant leader who failed to measure up to his own ideal. =Discussion & Analysis= DISCUSS HERE I've discussed this in part on the WWIII page, but I'll summarize here. The Eugenics Wars clearly took place in the 1990s - possibly starting in 1992, 1993, or even 1996. Mid-1990s is all we really know, since a rise in power in 92 or 93 does not equate to immediate breakouts in hostilities. Spock calls the mid-1990s the "era" of the war, so it couldn't have lasted too far beyond the 1990s. All we really know is that the wars took place mid-1990s. The article should state as much. The wars are also known as WWIII prior to the 24th Century, when apparently the mid-2000s conflict was awarded that name. The mid-2000s conflict might not have involved all nations or all continents, and so maybe didn't hit a definitional threshold - who knows. But there is a definite shift in reference in that pre-24th Century calls the Eugenics Wars WWIII, and 24th Century calls the mid-2000s war WWIII. There is also real historical precedence for people to rename conflicts to suit then-current ideas and politics, so I think that fits. Colonel Green operated post-Eugenics Wars (and may have participated in them; don't know), since he is seen making a speech after WWIII (called that since in pre-24th Century that would mean the 1990s conflicts), and "The Savage Curtain" pegs Green in the early 21st Century. Seems pretty straightforward, actually. :) Aholland 05:25, 19 February 2006 (UTC) :Unfortunately, assuming one conflict was called WWIII in one era and the other later became known by that name is speculation, which, of course, cannot be placed as fact in the article. There could be several entirely different reasons for both being called World War III, the most likely being the Eugenics Wars was the catalyst of the mid-21st century conlfict. Regardless, one thing is for sure: we don't need two articles discussing the Eugenics Wars. A note on the latter page stating that it is "considered synonymous with World War III" is good enough for me until a future episode or film can give more concrete details. That said, I'm all for compiling dialogue from episodes to try and piece the puzzle together, as there may always be something we missed or something we misunderstood. Knowhatimean? --From Andoria with Love 09:32, 19 February 2006 (UTC) ::I'm fine as long as any article hits the canon points of (1) Spock placed WWIII in the mid-1990s; (2) TNG-era people placed WWIII in the mid-2000s; and (3) Col. Green was after WWIII, but active in the early 2000s. There is nothing contra-canon about them renaming the war, and nothing else seems to fit. The alternative of saying "WWIII was a big war that happened . . . sometime" doesn't seem very useful to me. Aholland 15:30, 19 February 2006 (UTC) :::A thought on Aholland's point (1): I added a bit of dialogue to "Space Seeed" for context. Spock's comment "The mid-1990s was the era of your last so-called world war.", doesn't strike me as a sweeping statement that pegs WWIII solely in the mid-1990s. The goal of the bridge discussion to that point was analysis of the age and launch of the Botany Bay, and didn't get into historical debate until McCoy butted in. I think the statement, especially the imprecise "era of", does not preclude the idea of a larger, longer, multi-faceted conflict that Spock would have been aware of. McCoy's line, "The Eugenics Wars", could be read as stating the obvious to Spock, identifying the specific mid-1990s period as one aspect of the larger conflict. --Aurelius Kirk 13:11, 20 February 2006 (UTC)